JustinxBrisby or Not?

Well, does anybody else think think that there is enough Justin and Mrs. Brisby pairings already? For me, I didn’t mind it so much, but I studied more closely, I noticed some problems, obvious as they are. First off, they’re too different species wise: a human have DNA 98-99% compatible with a primate’s, and yet they cannot breed. The same is true for mice and rats, and I highly doubt it work as part of a story really. Here’s a link explaining why: http://www.ratbehavior.org/RatMouseHybrid.htm.

Also, Justin’s in charge of Thorn Valley with Nicodemus gone so he might not even have time for Mrs. Brisby. In fact, due to the fact that Mrs. Brisby is an ordinary mouse and would only live for one or two more years, she would even grow old and die meaning that Justin wouldn’t spend as much time with her.

Also, many writers fall under the fallacy during the “lights scene” that Justin and Mrs. Brisby are falling in loving with each other. It doesn’t seem right that somebody’s friend would go after his wife, even if you think that person would “not mind” after he has dies, it would breaking the honor that friend’s commitment to that person—in essence, a final “screw you, I can do it because I can and she wants me”. I also do not like the fact that if Justin does marry her, she’d no longer be “Mrs. Brisby”, and I think if it were to happen, it might alienate fans greatly.

As “Jam” said on the old Thorn Valley Forum: “In my oppinion I do NOT think they would have been a "couple" of sorts but much rather like "friends". I have observed that many Nimh fans say the same thing for just about the same reasons. In the "Kiss" scene shown above at the start of this topic I think that Mrs Brisby came to see Justin as a rat of Charm, Politeness and generaly a very well spoken and charismatic individule who perhaps in some way reminds her of Johnathon.

Justin I believe would have seen Mrs Brisby as a shy and well manerd person who knows nothing of there world but then eventualy comes to realize that she is more then a simple meek mother mouse.”

HolyArrow from the same site also said: “To be honest, I still don't understand why people get the idea of Justin having a crush on Mrs. Brisby. My answer to the question is no. My personal reason is that I am a fan of Johnathan and I believe that Mrs. Brisby will never forget about him no matter what happens. I just like the image of Mrs. B going with Johnathan. It seems that Mrs. Brisby appreciated Justin. He was being very nice to Mrs. Brisby. But I don't really think they should be a couple. I prefer Mrs. Brisby thinking about Johnathan.”

shivermetimbers said: “Think about the context for a bit. Justin starts out by admiring the fact that she is Jonathan's widow. "Mrs. Jonathan Brisby! It is an honor and a privilege, my lady." Mrs. Brisby is flattered by his respect and charisma, not to mention the fact that he's the Captain of the Guard. This causes her to look flattered. She simply sees him as a rat of respect and honor. Same thing with Justin's expression to Mrs. Brisby because she is the widow of a respectable mouse and friend to the rats.

I see no romance between the two and I'm kinda shocked that there's a lot of fanfiction pairing these two together. It's kinda cliche for him to leave his duties as Captain in order to pursue his friend's widow.” and “Id also like to mention that the thought of a rat and a mouse getting together kinda creeps me out. I can see a very close friendship forming, but there wouldn't (or shouldn't) be any sexual tenderness between the two. Id much rather Justin be with Isabella because it just seems right.”

DavidLeemhius said: “I, along with a few other fan-fic authors such as Chris Silva and Megan Lucas, was always a Justin-and-Isabella booster…”

Pennsylvania Jones said “Mrs. Brisby? I'm sorry, but I just can't see her with anyone but Jonathan.”

So there you have it. Not that I don’t like it—now I really don’t—but it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense either nor is it really viable. If anything, why not bring back Jonathan? Why couldn’t he have survived and is looking to find his family again? This may sound weak but here are some quotes from Nicodemus suggesting that he might be alive.

“Jonathan, your wife, I fear, is desperate trouble.”

“Jonathan, your wife has come at last.”

So why would Nicodemus being talking to Jonathan when he is dead? And why would he refer to Mrs. Brisby as a wife? Wouldn’t “widow” make more sense or not? Maybe Nicodemus knew that Jonathan was still alive somewhere, but never got to tell Mrs. Brisby the truth about Jonathan before Jenner killed him. Think of it this way: in Star Wars Obi-Wan Kenobi tells Luke that his father, Anakin, was betrayed and murdered by Darth Vader. However, in The Empire Strikes Back Vader reveals to Luke that he is his father and Yoda confirms it by Return of the Jedi. At least, that’s my theory. Wouldn’t that have made a better sequel or not?

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Comments

  • Woo-hoo! I gotta say, despite the ton of fan-fiction I’ve churned out in which Jonathan is alive and well, that I’d missed Nicodemus’s use of “wife” where you might expect “widow” to be more appropriate. On the other hand, there’s this line in the opening scene: “I am lost in knowing how to help his widow.” It would seem to indicate that he believed Jonathan dead at the time—he did say he was “killed”—but by the time Mrs. B sought his help, he knew or suspected that John had survived. Of course, if he had, why didn’t he tell her?

    Of course, Bluth and co. probably had nothing like that in mind; they likely just used the words interchangeably. But yeah, it makes for some neat speculation.

    And yes, I never for so much as a nanosecond saw Justin and Brisby as a couple. I didn’t even see the “lights” scene as involving flirting. Honestly, I was surprised when I first discovered online TSoN fandom and saw all the discussion of the (IMO) non-matter.

  • edited February 2014

    Well David, I believe that the scenario concerning that Nicodemus believed Jonathan was dead would work like this: Jenner delivers the news that “Jonathan has now departed from our world” and goes into detail about the events of that night—but while Jenner is partly true, he does not mention that he left Jonathan outside one of the secondary entrances to die. Nicodemus suspects Jenner could be lying somehow, yet he mentally braces himself for the possibility that Jenner is telling the truth as he writes down in the log the death of Jonathan Brisby. Shortly after, he sees in his visions that Jonathan is indeed alive, but Jenner’s words hold some grain of truth wrapped in a lie—Jonathan would no longer be on Earth, but in the Star Wars galaxy in my story.

    As for Nicodemus not telling Mrs. Brisby, I’m not entirely sure why. But one way you could look at it is that he divulges why Jonathan did not return that night, but he could not have told her how Jonathan would have survived, in my story at least, partly because she wouldn’t understand what being in space is like or what the Force is. You might also reason that Mrs. Brisby might have her doubts on Nicodemus’ reasoning and wisdom had he told her immediately that Jonathan wasn’t actually dead or that she would hold some anger toward Jonathan if she knew right off the bat. Perhaps, had Luke not confronted Vader immediately, Obi-Wan might have told Luke the truth about his father when he would be ready to handle it. However, since Luke learned about it anyway, he thought it best to free Vader from the Dark Side of the Force because he was Luke’s father and believed that he could be redeemed.

    Maybe Nicodemus had either selected a time of when to tell the truth to Mrs. Brisby when she was truly prepared to handle it like Obi-Wan with Luke or that he believed that she should discover it on her own accords like when she used the Stone. My thoughts are that Mrs. Brisby has enough midi-chlorians in her cells (if you go by the prequels and I do) that could last her long enough to spend the rest of life with Jonathan—happy and long as a human’s—but they’d some powerful surge of Force energy to activate them. The Stone—the Courage of the Heart as I call it, one of five other Force amulets based off of the Jedi Trials: Courage, Flesh, Skill, Insight, and Spirit—would strengthen a slightly preexisting connection to the Force and amplify it to the point where she would become as strong as a Jedi would be and acquire the gift of foresight and see the truth that way.

    So what do you think?

  • As much as I don't really care for forced romance between fictional characters in fanfiction, I care even less for resurrecting dead characters in fanfiction. It's just not very creative; it's very simple to come up with a what-if scenario involving a previously thought to be dead character ending up being alive.

    I think Gibbs did it the best that he could (on both counts, Jon being alive and Justin and Mrs. B being intimate), but even then the romance between Mrs. B and Justin I feel was there so it could be a non-issue later on and Jon's excuse being alive, while creatively done, leaves a lot of holes unfilled. I understand, tho, that fanfiction is where these sort of what-if scenarios can thrive, and I'm all for them, they just have to be handled with more care and make sense in terms of its own plot.

  • There are a lot of ideas in the book/movie that you can make a case for or against depending on your interpretation of it. This is a fictional story with fictional characters--all the silly rules of reality don't necessarily apply (otherwise Jeremy might've eaten Mrs. F/Brisby, end of story). I'm inclined to agree with ThePuppetMaster in the sense that we write fan-fics to continue or explore something not resolved in the original, and because we enjoy doing it. Other fans might like different ideas than I do, but as long as it is handled tastefully, doesn't outright contradict the original, and has a plot that makes sense, then I can still enjoy it even if it's not the story I would've written. Personally, I like Mrs. F/Brisby x Justin pairings if it's well-done (which I don't think it was in Gibbs's story, but that's a whole 'nother thread), and I'm not super thrilled about Jonathan resurrections...but really, there are so few NIMH fans left now that I'd never dismiss a fan-fic just because I see things differently. I'm just happy there still a couple people writing at all.

  • edited February 2014

    Hmm... Imagine dating a hobbit. Must be awkward. Same with a rat and a mouse together. Of course, the Stone could be used to work something out. Make Mrs. Brisby and the kids rats? Make Justin a mouse? But wouldn't it be an easier choice just to resurrect Jonathan? It all depends on one's interpretation of how the Stone works, how Mrs. Brisby's long-term emotions work, et cetera. If it's well written enough, I could see it happening.

  • Swayti14 said:

    Hmm... Imagine dating a hobbit. Must be awkward. Same with a rat and a mouse together. Of course, the Stone could be used to work something out. Make Mrs. Brisby and the kids rats? Make Justin a mouse? But wouldn't it be an easier choice just to resurrect Jonathan? It all depends on one's interpretation of how the Stone works, how Mrs. Brisby's long-term emotions work, et cetera. If it's well written enough, I could see it happening.

    Well Swayti14, I have something else in mind. I am glad, though, that you agree with me on the Jonathan returning (actually wasn’t dead in the first place in my mind) to his family once again. I’ll explain how in a private message.

  • Swayti14 said:

    Hmm... Imagine dating a hobbit. Must be awkward. Same with a rat and a mouse together.

    I dunno, I've seen little people dating average-sized people before, and very large people with very skinny people, etc. Maybe it would be physically awkward in some ways, but I imagine they'd get used to it, and anyway that's no reason that they couldn't still love each other.

    Oops, I think I messed up the formatting here with the quote and stuff...I fail at internets :(

  • A9_ said:

    Swayti14 said:

    Hmm... Imagine dating a hobbit. Must be awkward. Same with a rat and a mouse together.

    I dunno, I've seen little people dating average-sized people before, and very large people with very skinny people, etc. Maybe it would be physically awkward in some ways, but I imagine they'd get used to it, and anyway that's no reason that they couldn't still love each other.

    Oops, I think I messed up the formatting here with the quote and stuff...I fail at internets :

    Ever bring this into consideration? http://www.ratbehavior.org/RatMouseHybrid.htm Read this link and understand why they couldn’t be together. Even if it is fantasy, consider this quote as well.

    “Jonathan couldn’t tell you about NIMH because the injections slowed down the aging process. You see, you would have grown old while he remained young.”

    And you honestly still believe that they would still make a couple? No, because Justin would have other duties to attend to; namely serving as the Leader of the Rats. Justin would be too caught up in his duties to actually try and get together with Mrs. Brisby, and like Nicodemus said, Mrs. Brisby would grow older faster than Justin—mice live for only one to three years—and would die before any real romance could actually occur.

    Also, Mrs. Brisby has a family to tend to, and unless any circumstance forced them to go to Thorn Valley, they would never leave to go there at all.

    Also, why do you honestly believe that Justin would want to take up Mrs. Brisby as his wife? There’s Isabella in the books or do you just ignore that?

    Think about the context for a bit. Justin starts out by admiring the fact that she is Jonathan's widow. "Mrs. Jonathan Brisby! It is an honor and a privilege, my lady." Mrs. Brisby is flattered by his respect and charisma, not to mention the fact that he's the Captain of the Guard. This causes her to look flattered. She simply sees him as a rat of respect and honor. Same thing with Justin's expression to Mrs. Brisby because she is the widow of a respectable mouse and friend to the rats.

    I see no romance between the two and I'm kinda shocked that there's a lot of fanfiction pairing these two together. It's rather cliché for him to leave his duties as Captain in order to pursue his friend's widow.

  • A9_A9_
    edited February 2014

    I guess we all think our own interpretation of the book/movie is the "correct" one and that differing views are implausible or impossible or just plain dumb. But like I said before, this is fiction, and we're fans of the original story because we enjoy it--even if we like different things about it. So why not just let other people enjoy whatever they see in it? With only a handful of fans left, I don't like to split hairs anymore :D

    (Not trying to ignore all your points/questions--I'll respond to them if you really wanted me to...)

    edit: whoa, super happy face goin' on up there... i've gotta be careful with those emoticons..

  • A9_ said:

    (Not trying to ignore all your points/questions--I'll respond to them if you really wanted me to...)

    All right. Then make your arguments.

  • Okay, so first of all, I'm not saying Mrs. F/Brisby and Justin are definitely a couple or that anyone is blind if they don't see that in the original. I'm just saying I think it's a possibility for the future (i.e. for fan-fiction) based on how one interprets some scenes in the book/movie. I think other views are perfectly valid too. One thing I like about the original is that it leaves a lot open for interpretation, which makes for some very diverse fan-fics.

    ARAJediMaster said:

    Ever bring this into consideration? http://www.ratbehavior.org/RatMouseHybrid.htm Read this link and understand why they couldn’t be together. Even if it is fantasy

    But that's just it--it is fantasy. In the boring old real world, rats and mice and crows and owls and shrews would never associate--in fact some of them would eat the others, or at very least fight, which would negate the entire story. Based on the world the story is set in, I see no reason they couldn't be together. Also, that link is mostly about rat-mouse hybrids, and...uh...I'm not even gonna go there ;) Having a relationship doesn't equate to having children. ...Although, we are talking about a world where there are magic amulets and talking super-intelligent rodents who fight with swords, so really we've thrown reality out the window long ago XD

    consider this quote as well.

    “Jonathan couldn’t tell you about NIMH because the injections slowed down the aging process. You see, you would have grown old while he remained young.”

    That quote is directed toward Jonathan, not Justin :P

    Srsly though, Mrs. Brisby will grow old either way. Jonathan loved her even though he knew she'd die long before him, so I don't see why it'd be different with Justin or anyone else.

    And you honestly still believe that they would still make a couple? No, because Justin would have other duties to attend to; namely serving as the Leader of the Rats. Justin would be too caught up in his duties to actually try and get together with Mrs. Brisby

    Lots of people have jobs and relationships.

    and like Nicodemus said, Mrs. Brisby would grow older faster than Justin

    Actually, per your quote above, he said she'd grow older faster than Jonathan ;)

    Sorry, just bein silly :D

    Actually the whole timeline of the book and movie are kinda wonky anyway, especially the book where dates are spelled out better. There's not a lot of ways to make it work within the constraints of the natural life span of mice. Oops, I think I deleted the part of your quote about mice living 1-3 years, but 3 years is more like for pet mice; in the wild, it's rarely more than one year due to predators, food/water supplies, weather, etc. So again, I think we have to focus on what would make sense within the context of the original, not in the real world, because in that case Mrs. Brisby probably wouldn't have even made it to the opening scene.

    Also, Mrs. Brisby has a family to tend to, and unless any circumstance forced them to go to Thorn Valley, they would never leave to go there at all.

    They talk about going there at the end of both the book and the movie. I think it would be natural for the Brisby children to want to be with others like themselves and to go to school and things like that, and also to learn more about their father.

    Also, why do you honestly believe that Justin would want to take up Mrs. Brisby as his wife? There’s Isabella in the books or do you just ignore that?

    Isabella is a child. The end.

    Think about the context for a bit. Justin starts out by admiring the fact that she is Jonathan's widow. "Mrs. Jonathan Brisby! It is an honor and a privilege, my lady." Mrs. Brisby is flattered by his respect and charisma, not to mention the fact that he's the Captain of the Guard. This causes her to look flattered. She simply sees him as a rat of respect and honor. Same thing with Justin's expression to Mrs. Brisby because she is the widow of a respectable mouse and friend to the rats.

    We agree--they respect each other. I'm not saying they instantly fall in love. If they respect and admire each other, then that could lead to romantic feelings later on too.

    I see no romance between the two and I'm kinda shocked that there's a lot of fanfiction pairing these two together. It's rather cliché for him to leave his duties as Captain in order to pursue his friend's widow.

    Why would he have to leave his duties? Also, plenty of widows re-marry or date or whatever. It would be kind of sad for Mrs. Brisby to have to be alone forever, sulkily mourning for Jonathan for the rest of her life. She's a strong enough character by the end that she can keep loving Jonathan and always remember him, but still be able to move on with her life and care about someone else too and be happy again.

    ...Anyway, just my tuppence :)

  • edited February 2014

    A9_ said:

    Okay, so first of all, I'm not saying Mrs. F/Brisby and Justin are definitely a couple or that anyone is blind if they don't see that in the original. I'm just saying I think it's a possibility for the future (i.e. for fan-fiction) based on how one interprets some scenes in the book/movie. I think other views are perfectly valid too. One thing I like about the original is that it leaves a lot open for interpretation, which makes for some very diverse fan-fics.

    But that's just it--it is fantasy. In the boring old real world, rats and mice and crows and owls and shrews would never associate--in fact some of them would eat the others, or at very least fight, which would negate the entire story. Based on the world the story is set in, I see no reason they couldn't be together. Also, that link is mostly about rat-mouse hybrids, and...uh...I'm not even gonna go there ;) Having a relationship doesn't equate to having children. ...Although, we are talking about a world where there are magic amulets and talking super-intelligent rodents who fight with swords, so really we've thrown reality out the window long ago XD

    That quote is directed toward Jonathan, not Justin :P

    Srsly though, Mrs. Brisby will grow old either way. Jonathan loved her even though he knew she'd die long before him, so I don't see why it'd be different with Justin or anyone else.

    Even then, Justin would outlast her before any relationships would even bud. If Justin wanted to have a lasting, repeat lasting, relationship with anybody, Mrs. Brisby is out of the question. I could never see it happening. What would you do in Justin’s place? Marry somebody that you know would live only just a few years of your life while she dies and you’re alone for the rest of your life? Would you marry somebody else afterward, but you’d forget about your first wife? To me, Justin would sound more like the kind of guy who doesn’t care about anybody but himself. See the issue there?

    Lots of people have jobs and relationships.

    It won’t necessarily have to be a romance. It could easily just be a friendship and nothing more. Besides, there could be other rats in the colony

    Actually, per your quote above, he said she'd grow older faster than Jonathan ;)

    Sorry, just bein silly :D

    Actually the whole timeline of the book and movie are kinda wonky anyway, especially the book where dates are spelled out better. There's not a lot of ways to make it work within the constraints of the natural life span of mice. Oops, I think I deleted the part of your quote about mice living 1-3 years, but 3 years is more like for pet mice; in the wild, it's rarely more than one year due to predators, food/water supplies, weather, etc. So again, I think we have to focus on what would make sense within the context of the original, not in the real world, because in that case Mrs. Brisby probably wouldn't have even made it to the opening scene.

    Well, if you’ve read The Thrawn Trilogy, you’ll know that Timothy Zahn did a lot of research on military strategy and tactics, invented a character that proved to be a worthy adversary for the main characters and the New Republic, conceived of dangers that are hazardous for even Jedi, and declared Coruscant as the Galactic Capital which George Lucas used later on in his films. In my story, the way I interpret this: Elizabeth (Mrs. Brisby) was not exactly an ordinary mouse to start out with, for she aged twice as slow than normal of any mouse before she met Jonathan the spring and married toward its end. They have their children within the period of four to six months before Jonathan’s fateful journey in September.

    They talk about going there at the end of both the book and the movie. I think it would be natural for the Brisby children to want to be with others like themselves and to go to school and things like that, and also to learn more about their father.

    The children go. Not Mrs. Brisby. At the end, maybe. But you never see them pairing up, do we? So we could throw that one out the window.

    Isabella is a child. The end.

    So? Isabella is nearing marrying age by the first book and they do get married by the second, so there.

    We agree--they respect each other. I'm not saying they instantly fall in love. If they respect and admire each other, then that could lead to romantic feelings later on too.

    Must it? Like I told you, it may never even happen at all.

    Why would he have to leave his duties? Also, plenty of widows re-marry or date or whatever. It would be kind of sad for Mrs. Brisby to have to be alone forever, sulkily mourning for Jonathan for the rest of her life. She's a strong enough character by the end that she can keep loving Jonathan and always remember him, but still be able to move on with her life and care about someone else too and be happy again.

    Look, I’m sorry for the way that I’ve been ranting on the way I have been through my responses, but my answer still holds firm. It’s used way too much—even if well written, I’ve seen too much of it, and it never makes any sense from the start.

    There are only three possibilities I see coming out of this: One has Mrs. Brisby just dies and reunited with Jonathan that way, but we’d rather not see it that way. Two, Mrs. Brisby finds another mouse and marries him. Or three, Mrs. Brisby learns the truth about her husband being alive and sets out to find him, or rather he sets out to find her again.

    Here’s the thing on why precisely I’d like to see Jonathan live. I want to see Mrs. Brisby be happy again, but it never has to be Justin. It may sound cute at first, but it doesn’t make sense when you think about it long enough. Even a friend on DeviantArt, TheBattyCrow, heartily agrees with me. What I would be doing is taking the road less traveled and exploring a new possibility that few have ever tried before. Here’s a quote from The Princess Bride that makes me see Jonathan live again: “Death cannot stop true love, all it can do it delay it for a while.” I’ve always seen Jonathan and Elizabeth as true lovers, and Justin marrying her, well here’s what I think of it: .

    EDIT: Okay, trying to separate your quotes from mine is ticking me off here, so sorry if you can’t discern my thoughts.

    EDIT: Just found out how to. Derp!

  • ARAJediMaster said:

    If Justin wanted to have a lasting, repeat lasting, relationship with anybody, Mrs. Brisby is out of the question. I could never see it happening. What would you do in Justin’s place? Marry somebody that you know would live only just a few years of your life while she dies and you’re alone for the rest of your life? Would you marry somebody else afterward, but you’d forget about your first wife? To me, Justin would sound more like the kind of guy who doesn’t care about anybody but himself. See the issue there?

    Not really, because how is it any different than when Jonathan married her? The same issues would apply to him too. Anyway, that's like saying that old people or people who are sick shouldn't get married since they'll only have a few years left. I see that as even more of a reason to do what makes them happy--to make the most of the little time they have left, you know, carpe diem and all that.

    Well, if you’ve read The Thrawn Trilogy

    I haven't, sorry. I spend too much time writing fan-fics to like..read or anything.

    In my story, the way I interpret this: Elizabeth (Mrs. Brisby) was not exactly an ordinary mouse to start out with, for she aged twice as slow than normal of any mouse

    Oh, cool, well that solves all that aging business, then!

    So? Isabella is nearing marrying age by the first book and they do get married by the second, so there.

    Um...I know I tried to forget that I ever read Racso, but...I'm pretty sure they don't get married. Isn't Isabella basically Racso's age in that book? Anyway, I know in the original, Isabella is portrayed as a little girl--she cries to her mother at the rats' meeting, and she's carrying around school readers. Sounds like she'd be the equivalent of a 10-11 year old girl, which...I'm sure laws and customs are different elsewhere, but marrying age?--that'd be a whole lotta illegal here.

    (As an aside, the second book isn't even by the original author, so it's basically fan-fiction itself ;) )

    Look, I’m sorry for the way that I’ve been ranting on the way I have been through my responses, but my answer still holds firm. It’s used way too much—even if well written, I’ve seen too much of it, and it never makes any sense from the start.

    Well, then I guess just don't read those fan-fics? Maybe those stories should be marked with some kind of symbol or something--you know, like a biohazard symbol--so people will know in advance :D In any case then, you'll want to avoid my fic if I ever end up posting it...tho I do also bring Jonathan back, so...?

    It may sound cute at first, but it doesn’t make sense when you think about it long enough.

    Well, it makes sense to some people, is all I'm saying :)

  • edited February 2014

    A9_ said:

    Not really, because how is it any different than when Jonathan married her? The same issues would apply to him too. Anyway, that's like saying that old people or people who are sick shouldn't get married since they'll only have a few years left. I see that as even more of a reason to do what makes them happy--to make the most of the little time they have left, you know, carpe diem and all that.

    No, but if anything, Mrs. Brisby should find a new mouse to marry or Jonathan should come back. I’d like to explain in a private message on how it happens.

    I haven't, sorry. I spend too much time writing fan-fics to like..read or anything.

    Maybe if you tried reading, maybe you would actually gain a little insight on how authors write their stories, you might get some insight on how you might actually make a living on writing

    Oh, cool, well that solves all that aging business, then!

    And like I told you, I might explain more in my message

    Um...I know I tried to forget that I ever read Racso, but...I'm pretty sure they don't get married. Isn't Isabella basically Racso's age in that book? Anyway, I know in the original, Isabella is portrayed as a little girl--she cries to her mother at the rats' meeting, and she's carrying around school readers. Sounds like she'd be the equivalent of a 10-11 year old girl, which...I'm sure laws and customs are different elsewhere, but marrying age?--that'd be a whole lotta illegal here. (As an aside, the second book isn't even by the original author, so it's basically fan-fiction itself.

    Why would matter if it comes from the originals? Maybe you should ask Simon or anybody who’s read them and see what they make of it.

    Well, then I guess just don't read those fan-fics? Maybe those stories should be marked with some kind of symbol or something--you know, like a biohazard symbol--so people will know in advance :D In any case then, you'll want to avoid my fic if I ever end up posting it...tho I do also bring Jonathan back, so...?

    What are you talking about? “tho I do also bring Jonathan back, so...?” That sentence doesn’t even make sense! Are you going to bring Jonathan back in your story or what’s the deal? I thought you said you weren’t thrilled about the idea in the first place.

    Well, it makes sense to some people, is all I'm saying :)

    I don’t know where you get your delusions, laserbrain. :D Nah, I’m not trying to hurt you, I’m just poking at you and quoting at the same time.

  • Racso doesn't get married to Isabella in Racso or R-T, though he does develop something of a crush on her.

    As for the topic at hand, I don't really have an opinion either way on whether people ship Justin with Mrs. Brisby. If someone wants to do it in their own story/headcanon, more power to them. I generally prefer the Jonathan x Mrs. Brisby pairing, but really, the story, characters and motivations matter more to me. I'd rather read a well-written ship with Justin and Mrs. B than something slapped together involving Jonathan reuniting with Mrs. B.

    In any case, I'll conclude with a small reminder to keep the discussion civil. After all,

  • Simon said:

    Racso doesn't get married to Isabella in Racso or R-T, though he does develop something of a crush on her.

    As for the topic at hand, I don't really have an opinion either way on whether people ship Justin with Mrs. Brisby. If someone wants to do it in their own story/headcanon, more power to them. I generally prefer the Jonathan x Mrs. Brisby pairing, but really, the story, characters and motivations matter more to me. I'd rather read a well-written ship with Justin and Mrs. B than something slapped together involving Jonathan reuniting with Mrs. B.

    In any case, I'll conclude with a small reminder to keep the discussion civil. After all,

    May I ask why it bothers you to reunite Jonathan and Mrs. Brisby together? Why do you not find it so appealing? If Jonathan had lived, wouldn’t he have tried to get back to his family?

    Please elaborate.

  • edited February 2014

    ARAJediMaster said:

    Simon said:

    Racso doesn't get married to Isabella in Racso or R-T, though he does develop something of a crush on her.

    As for the topic at hand, I don't really have an opinion either way on whether people ship Justin with Mrs. Brisby. If someone wants to do it in their own story/headcanon, more power to them. I generally prefer the Jonathan x Mrs. Brisby pairing, but really, the story, characters and motivations matter more to me. I'd rather read a well-written ship with Justin and Mrs. B than something slapped together involving Jonathan reuniting with Mrs. B.

    In any case, I'll conclude with a small reminder to keep the discussion civil. After all,

    May I ask why it bothers you to reunite Jonathan and Mrs. Brisby together? Why do you not find it so appealing? If Jonathan had lived, wouldn’t he have tried to get back to his family?

    Please elaborate.

    I may regret budging in here...but here goes.....

    Simon didn't say he was bothered by the Jonathan x Mrs. Brisby pairing. He said that he doesn't like a slapdash written work involving them to reunite and that he would prefer a Justin x Brisby pairing that was actually well written instead. So basically what he DID say is that he doesn't really care whether or not its Justin x Mrs. B. or Jonathan x Mrs. B, if it's well written, it doesn't matter. I agree with him.

    Also arguing over something like this, at the risk of sounding rude, is worthless. As Simon pointed out, it's okay not to like a pairing of a certain group. You don't have to like it or read it. And if someone does likes a pairing you don't like, don't call them a "laserbrain" or something. If you want me to end the discussion, I say that fiction doesn't have to be bound to the rules of reality. Just because it doesn't make sense in terms of reality, doesn't mean it can't be good literature. As long as it makes sense in terms of the world the author has created and/or written in an entertaining or interesting way, I say it's fair game.

    Also, this is coming from a person who has similar problems, try to avoid confrontational language. Be civil. Be relaxed.

  • edited February 2014

    ThePuppetMaster said:

    I may regret budging in here...but here goes.....

    Simon didn't say he was bothered by the Jonathan x Mrs. Brisby pairing. He said that he doesn't like a slapdash written work involving them to reunite and that he would prefer a Justin x Brisby pairing that was actually well written instead.

    I am very well aware that fact. I need to know why Simon would believe reuniting the two is a bad thing. I am not saying that the way it’s done could necessarily be bad; I need to know why he would believe that way.

    So basically what he DID say is that he doesn't really care whether or not its Justin x Mrs. B. or Jonathan x Mrs. B, if it's well written, it doesn't matter. I agree with him.

    I do. And if you asked TheBattyCrow on DeviantArt, she might give you a similar response. Justin and Mrs. Brisby will never, ever mix in my mind. It’s just...wrong in my mind even if it is well written, I will not read it at all.

    Also arguing over something like this, at the risk of sounding rude, is worthless. As Simon pointed out, it's okay not to like a pairing of a certain group. You don't have to like it or read it.

    I never said that I wanted to. I just wanted to point out how there’s too much of it was all.

    And if someone does likes a pairing you don't like, don't call them a "laserbrain" or something.

    And I told him I was kidding. Look: “Nah, I’m not trying to hurt you, I’m just poking at you and quoting at the same time.”

    If you want me to end the discussion, I say that fiction doesn't have to be bound to the rules of reality. Just because it doesn't make sense in terms of reality, doesn't mean it can't be good literature. As long as it makes sense in terms of the world the author has created and/or written in an entertaining or interesting way, I say it's fair game.

    No, but I want it to at least make as much sense as possible, yet creative in a way. Still doesn’t mean I’d go for a mouse and a rat together. If that were to happen, then didn’t Jonathan just marry one of the rats and be done with it? That’s kinda the way I see it.

    Also, this is coming from a person who has similar problems, try to avoid confrontational language. Be civil. Be relaxed.

    I am doing my best to be as civil and relaxed as possible. I just get irked a little at this kind of thing.

  • ARAJediMaster: sure, PM me if you'd like.

    Simon: I LOLed. That song is WAY too catchy and I'll have you know it was stuck in my head the entire drive down here XD

  • A9_ said:

    ARAJediMaster: sure, PM me if you'd like.

    Simon: I LOLed. That song is WAY too catchy and I'll have you know it was stuck in my head the entire drive down here XD

    Wait a minute. What are you talking about? Where are you getting this? Where did I say that or where did Simon say that?

    Are you poking fun at me?

  • And I told him I was kidding. Look: “Nah, I’m not trying to hurt you, I’m just poking at you and quoting at the same time.”

    You may have spoken it in jest, and maybe that's fine when you're with a group of close friends making friendly jabs at one another or something along those lines, but on the internet with strangers? No. That just comes off as mean-spirited and tasteless. Would you walk up to a stranger, lets say, a store clerk, whom you've had an argument with lets say, and call them a "laserbrain" for not agreeing with you? It's the internet, and jest isn't easily conveyed, and with a keyboard, it's easier to sound mean to another person. I'm not judging you or calling you a bad person, just be careful when talking to strangers over the internet and be respectful.

    I am very well aware that fact. I need to know why Simon would believe reuniting the two is a bad thing. I am not saying that the way it’s done could necessarily be bad; I need to know why he would believe that way.

    He didn't say that reuniting the couple is a bad thing, he even said he preferred the Jonathan x Mrs. Brisby pairing. He said that he'd prefer to read a well written story that focused on Justin x Mrs. Brisby than reading a poorly written story when the two reunite. And that makes sense to me.

  • edited February 2014

    ThePuppetMaster said:

    And I told him I was kidding. Look: “Nah, I’m not trying to hurt you, I’m just poking at you and quoting at the same time.”

    You may have spoken it in jest, and maybe that's fine when you're with a group of close friends making friendly jabs at one another or something along those lines, but on the internet with strangers? No. That just comes off as mean-spirited and tasteless. Would you walk up to a stranger, lets say, a store clerk, whom you've had an argument with lets say, and call them a "laserbrain" for not agreeing with you? It's the internet, and jest isn't easily conveyed, and with a keyboard, it's easier to sound mean to another person. I'm not judging you or calling you a bad person, just be careful when talking to strangers over the internet and be respectful.

    Okay, I’ve sent an apology to him and I hope he accepts it.

    I am very well aware that fact. I need to know why Simon would believe reuniting the two is a bad thing. I am not saying that the way it’s done could necessarily be bad; I need to know why he would believe that way.

    He didn't say that reuniting the couple is a bad thing, he even said he preferred the Jonathan x Mrs. Brisby pairing. He said that he'd prefer to read a well written story that focused on Justin x Mrs. Brisby than reading a poorly written story when the two reunite. And that makes sense to me.

    Well, I’d rather have Jonathan and Mrs. Brisby together again, but in a very, very good story to make it happen.

    I mean, do you remember that link I sent you about that Star Wars/Secret of NIMH crossover and you liked the first chapter (I think). That’s the story I plan to bring Jonathan back. I am working on chapters 2 and 3. They will deal with Mrs. Brisby and her family a year after the first film as well as additional protagonists and the crew of the Imperator-class Star Destroyer Krayt Dragon. I hope that when they are done, you enjoy them and find them especially good.

  • ARAJediMaster said:

    Wait a minute. What are you talking about? Where are you getting this? Where did I say that or where did Simon say that?

    Are you poking fun at me?

    No, I'm not poking anything, I was saying you could PM me like you mentioned several posts above. You said you were going to explain something about Jonathan in a private message, so I was saying okay. And then I was telling Simon that the song in the video he posted was stuck in my head for four hours. That's all :) Sorry for any confusion.

  • A9_ said:

    ARAJediMaster said:

    Wait a minute. What are you talking about? Where are you getting this? Where did I say that or where did Simon say that?

    Are you poking fun at me?

    No, I'm not poking anything, I was saying you could PM me like you mentioned several posts above. You said you were going to explain something about Jonathan in a private message, so I was saying okay. And then I was telling Simon that the song in the video he posted was stuck in my head for four hours. That's all :) Sorry for any confusion.

    =(( Oh! Okay then!

  • edited March 2014

    Hello,

    I somehow believe that Elizabeth Brisby MIGHT have a future with Justin; that's my personal opinion, anyway. I mean, when you think about it, a widow can adjust to the fact that she's going to be without her husband, but she's still human...or, in this case, mouse, and, occasionally, she's GOING to miss the companionship that her husband provided her with during those earlier years, so that when that new someone comes along, she is going to naturally desire him.

    In the case of Mrs. Briby, we have before us an attractive, sweet mother mouse, who is still young and healthy...and capable of desiring romance, so I feel that her loneliness, and her desire for her deceased husband, would cause her to want Justin as not only a boyfriend, but a future mate.

    Elizabeth Brisby cannot cordon herself off in the block with her children forever! When she first met Jeremy, she proved to us that she's a gregarious, personable lady, who is still capable of flirting, conversing, and mesmerizing...Besides, she started out as so much of an apologetic, dutiful field mouse, and then she learned so much about how to fight for her own needs, that I cannot believe that she could ever be the totally repressed sort anymore.

    If we look at Justin, we see before us...a total hunk of smokin' hot rat in a sexy uniform! O.K. Sorry...;) Well, anyway, we see before us a handsome rat, who has proven himself to be honest, caring, and brave. I personally believe that he'd make a SUPER father for those three Brisby children.

    I do think that the flirtation between JEREMY and Elizabeth Brisby is sort of bittersweet, because even though Jeremy finds Tiffany in the end, he was really, REALLY crushin' on Mrs. Brisby for awhile there, admiring her for her romantic advice, etc.

    I don't think that an Elizabeth Brisby/ Justin pairing would be all that bad, with regards to species-specific issues, either, because mice and rats are BOTH RODENTS, and, besides, Justin ISN'T so big, or so tall, that he COULDN'T be Mrs. Brisby's mate.

    I have a feeling that if we ignore "The Secret of NIMH 2: Timmy to the Rescue", we might eventually hear the pitter-patter of little rat-mouse feet during the future...

    Of course, I ALSO know that it may take some time for Mrs. Brisby to CHOOSE Justin as her new mate, because she has such warm, lasting feelings for Johnathan, AND because she's become a stronger, more independent lady (She's confident when she meets Jeremy at the end of the movie, and one feels as though she's much more self-reliant).

    Maybe I just think that Justin LOOKS so much more like the big, strong, protective hero than Johnathan EVER looked...;) Sorry, Jonathan.

    I think that Johnathan was the clever one, and that Justin is more the strong type, but that BOTH guys were/ are morally sound.

    Who knows...Elizabeth Brisby may choose to keep Justin as a boyfriend...rather than marrying him; I still believe that he will play SOME role in her life forever.

    Bye Now, Mrs. Brisby

  • edited March 2014

    MrsBrisby said:

    Hello,

    I somehow believe that Elizabeth Brisby MIGHT have a future with Justin; that's my personal opinion, anyway. I mean, when you think about it, a widow can adjust to the fact that she's going to be without her husband, but she's still human...or, in this case, mouse, and, occasionally, she's GOING to miss the companionship that her husband provided her with during those earlier years, so that when that new someone comes along, she is going to naturally desire him.

    Look, I’m sorry to spoil your illusions, but I can never see that happen. I’ve seen my mother divorce twice and remarry twice. I’m sorry, but I’ve had to endure that much pain, so that’s why I hate the idea of Justin and Mrs. Brisby being together. I hope you understand.

    In the case of Mrs. Briby, we have before us an attractive, sweet mother mouse, who is still young and healthy...and capable of desiring romance, so I feel that her loneliness, and her desire for her deceased husband, would cause her to want Justin as not only a boyfriend, but a future mate.

    Maybe Elizabeth may not choose Justin for a husband and go for another mouse instead. I mean, if Jonathan went for a rat as a wife instead. Then there would be no Mrs. Brisby at all, not the See what I’m getting at?

    Elizabeth Brisby cannot cordon herself off in the block with her children forever! When she first met Jeremy, she proved to us that she's a gregarious, personable lady, who is still capable of flirting, conversing, and mesmerizing...Besides, she started out as so much of an apologetic, dutiful field mouse, and then she learned so much about how to fight for her own needs, that I cannot believe that she could ever be the totally repressed sort anymore.

    If we look at Justin, we see before us...a total hunk of smokin' hot rat in a sexy uniform! O.K. Sorry...;) Well, anyway, we see before us a handsome rat, who has proven himself to be honest, caring, and brave. I personally believe that he'd make a SUPER father for those three Brisby children.

    Three? What happened to four? Did you forget one? I can never see Justin as part of the family. Maybe a family friend, but that’s it.

    I do think that the flirtation between JEREMY and Elizabeth Brisby is sort of bittersweet, because even though Jeremy finds Tiffany in the end, he was really, REALLY crushin' on Mrs. Brisby for awhile there, admiring her for her romantic advice, etc.

    I don't think that an Elizabeth Brisby/ Justin pairing would be all that bad, with regards to species-specific issues, either, because mice and rats are BOTH RODENTS, and, besides, Justin ISN'T so big, or so tall, that he COULDN'T be Mrs. Brisby's mate.

    I have a feeling that if we ignore "The Secret of NIMH 2: Timmy to the Rescue", we might eventually hear the pitter-patter of little rat-mouse feet during the future...

    See? That’s one of the points I was trying to make. Mice and rats cannot breed, period! Here’s the link explaining why: http://www.ratbehavior.org/RatMouseHybrid.htm.

    Of course, I ALSO know that it may take some time for Mrs. Brisby to CHOOSE Justin as her new mate, because she has such warm, lasting feelings for Johnathan, AND because she's become a stronger, more independent lady (She's confident when she meets Jeremy at the end of the movie, and one feels as though she's much more self-reliant).

    Maybe I just think that Justin LOOKS so much more like the big, strong, protective hero than Johnathan EVER looked...;) Sorry, Jonathan.

    Yeah, that’s the problem. There’s too much of Justin x Brisby out there and never enough Jonathan x Brisby which is why I sent you the link to my story.

    I think that Johnathan was the clever one, and that Justin is more the strong type, but that BOTH guys were/ are morally sound.

    Who knows...Elizabeth Brisby may choose to keep Justin as a boyfriend...rather than marrying him; I still believe that he will play SOME role in her life forever.

    Well I think there would be no “boy” in Mrs. Brisby’s friendship. It would just be friend and nothing more.

  • edited March 2014

    ThePuppetMaster said:

    ARAJediMaster said:

    Simon said:

    Racso doesn't get married to Isabella in Racso or R-T, though he does develop something of a crush on her.

    As for the topic at hand, I don't really have an opinion either way on whether people ship Justin with Mrs. Brisby. If someone wants to do it in their own story/headcanon, more power to them. I generally prefer the Jonathan x Mrs. Brisby pairing, but really, the story, characters and motivations matter more to me. I'd rather read a well-written ship with Justin and Mrs. B than something slapped together involving Jonathan reuniting with Mrs. B.

    In any case, I'll conclude with a small reminder to keep the discussion civil. After all,

    May I ask why it bothers you to reunite Jonathan and Mrs. Brisby together? Why do you not find it so appealing? If Jonathan had lived, wouldn’t he have tried to get back to his family?

    Please elaborate.

    I may regret budging in here...but here goes.....

    Simon didn't say he was bothered by the Jonathan x Mrs. Brisby pairing. He said that he doesn't like a slapdash written work involving them to reunite and that he would prefer a Justin x Brisby pairing that was actually well written instead. So basically what he DID say is that he doesn't really care whether or not its Justin x Mrs. B. or Jonathan x Mrs. B, if it's well written, it doesn't matter. I agree with him.

    Also arguing over something like this, at the risk of sounding rude, is worthless. As Simon pointed out, it's okay not to like a pairing of a certain group. You don't have to like it or read it. And if someone does likes a pairing you don't like, don't call them a "laserbrain" or something. If you want me to end the discussion, I say that fiction doesn't have to be bound to the rules of reality. Just because it doesn't make sense in terms of reality, doesn't mean it can't be good literature. As long as it makes sense in terms of the world the author has created and/or written in an entertaining or interesting way, I say it's fair game.

    Also, this is coming from a person who has similar problems, try to avoid confrontational language. Be civil. Be relaxed.

    I haven't read past this reply yet, but ThePuppetMaster basically has basically said what I was trying to say. I don't care who ends up with who or how that happens. Write a good story first and foremost. All I am saying is that I'd rather see a well-written story than a not-so-well-written one. If you just bring Jonathan back via some deus ex machina or other contrivance, and Mrs. Brisby just falls back into his arms unconditionally and uncritically, then I'm not going to have a particularly high opinion of the story. It's not because of the characters involved, it'd be because of the writing and plot itself.

    I could say the same thing about a plot involving Justin, if, say, Justin and Mrs. Brisby both just fall immediately head-over-heels for each other without a second thought. Neither of them are that twitterpated in the movie or book, so I'd expect better justification for any developing romance there.

    The question of Justin vs Jonathan as Mrs. Brisby's love interest is generally uninteresting to me. Write a good story, and that will interest me. Besides, who's to say she has to end up with one or the other? I think she stands just fine on her own. And who's to say she might find some other nice rodent to settle down with now that she doesn't have to worry about any plows digging up her home.

  • Finished the thread. ARAJediMaster, I'm thinking you'll have to live with the fact that not everyone feels the same way that you do about this issue. That doesn't make them wrong or you wrong; it is ultimately a matter of opinion. And, no, you can't really fall back on biology or whatnot to claim that there is only one correct opinion, not when you have to deal with hyperintelligent (and magical, if you go by the movie) rats. Fictional universes are like that, I'm afraid.

  • Simon said:

    I haven't read past this reply yet, but ThePuppetMaster basically has basically said what I was trying to say. I don't care who ends up with who or how that happens. Write a good story first and foremost. All I am saying is that I'd rather see a well-written story than a not-so-well-written one. If you just bring Jonathan back via some deus ex machina or other contrivance, and Mrs. Brisby just falls back into his arms unconditionally and uncritically, then I'm not going to have a particularly high opinion of the story. It's not because of the characters involved, it'd be because of the writing and plot itself.

    Could you explain to me via private message on what you are referring to? Are you talking about my story being poorly conceived or any story that is poorly conceived in general? This isn’t attacking me, is it?

  • Simon said:

    And, no, you can't really fall back on biology or whatnot to claim that there is only one correct opinion.

    Simon, there is actually is a problem on that for a very good reason. If biology didn’t matter, then why didn’t Jonathan stick himself with a rat female than with the Mrs. Brisby we all know and love? What then?

    If a rat wanted to breed with a mouse, then why not vice-versa? You don’t see it happening in the films or the books of NIMH. Therefore, I would conclude that it would never happen at all in that universe. That’s the problem I’m trying to tackle with.

This discussion has been closed.